Curse

Essence Snow · Jul 25, 2011, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Are you all so jaded by PvE skills and consumables that you can't recognize that a 20 second recharge on a skill that greatly rewards skillful use it a good thing?

Not by PvE skills....it's that they get changed b/c of PvP....and mostly by GvG. Maybe 10% plays GvG....and thats generous...wtf should 90% of the game's population be effected so much by a format that so few play? Imo it should be reversed...let the 10% deal with the changes that plz 90% of the game. Lets be honest PvE pays the bills...Anet needs to cater moreso to it.

Wenspire · Jul 25, 2011, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Are you all so jaded by PvE skills and consumables that you can't recognize that a 20 second recharge on a skill that greatly rewards skillful use it a good thing?

Of all the useful skills under the protection tree, only one has a longer recharge than SG, and that is Aegis. I believe the next longest would probably be Shielding Hands at 12sec. For a 10en skill that offers a low return the recharge should reflect it's usefulness.

*lemming* · Jul 25, 2011, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

My Healing Burst heals all party members at 13 Divine Favor for 40 health, heals an ally 150. Recharges every 4 seconds, costs 5 energy.

Shield Guardian heals all party members at 13 protection prayers for 40 health, blocks 1 freaking attack. Recharges every 25 seconds, costs 10 energy.

By the time this skill recharges, Healing Burst could be cast, say, 5 times, healing everyone the same amount Shield Guardian does on top of Healing Bursts +150 heal.

All I was getting at was that especially in this month's spike-heavy metagame, people don't run Healing Burst, and even when they do, it's ancillary to ritualist party healing. Again, I'm not disagreeing that Shield Guardian, as it is right now, is not very good, at least according to my monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Not by PvE skills....it's that they get changed b/c of PvP....and mostly by GvG. Maybe 10% plays GvG....and thats generous...wtf should 90% of the game's population be effected so much by a format that so few play? Imo it should be reversed...let the 10% deal with the changes that plz 90% of the game. Lets be honest PvE pays the bills...Anet needs to cater moreso to it.

No.

Essence Snow · Jul 25, 2011, 08:39 PM // 20:39

No what?..No doesn't explain anything...plz clarify^^

Sankt Hallvard · Jul 25, 2011, 08:55 PM // 20:55

I think "no" in this case can be roughly translated to "go back to pve". [insert whatever smiley you find appropriate here in order to avoid thread derail.]

Elnino · Jul 25, 2011, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Not by PvE skills....it's that they get changed b/c of PvP....and mostly by GvG. Maybe 10% plays GvG....and thats generous...wtf should 90% of the game's population be effected so much by a format that so few play? Imo it should be reversed...let the 10% deal with the changes that plz 90% of the game. Lets be honest PvE pays the bills...Anet needs to cater moreso to it.

Balance>Happiness. Period.

Skyy High · Jul 25, 2011, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

No what?..No doesn't explain anything...plz clarify^^

1) PvE already gets the majority of the updates, and many of the skill balances. The dervish and mesmer rebalances were certainly done with PvE in mind, not PvP. So, right off the bat, your claim is bull; PvE already does get much more attention.
2) PvP runs on balance, PvE does not. PvE has tons of OPed crap to play with. The addition or subtraction of a skill here or there will not make or break your entertainment; quite the opposite for PvP.
3) Every game has a tiny percentage of the population that plays in the top formats/difficulty levels/brackets. That's why they're the top formats. That's not an argument for ignoring them! The game needs that top format to prosper, or there's literally nowhere for those in the middle to aspire to (which is, incidentally, the situation we are in right now, for the most part).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

For a 10en skill that offers a low return the recharge should reflect it's usefulness.

A Heal Party in the prot line that heals all allies and can heal for ~120hp easily in most cases doesn't strike me as useless. Compare Divine Healing, a solid skill for a monk in PvE that needs nonelite party healing. SG is 5 energy more and recharges 8 seconds slower, but will almost always heal for at least 20 points, heal all allies, and if you use it well you could get double the healing or more as DH.

Killed u man · Jul 25, 2011, 09:14 PM // 21:14

I think people are forgetting that against any form of trip melee, this skill will be a guaranteed 90-120 party heal with a reasonable chance to heal for more. (A ranger dshotting something, any caster wanding, ...)

In it's current state, this skill should be very effective on a midliner. (Ele, Necro or even illusion stand mesmer)

Essence Snow · Jul 25, 2011, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Let me start off by saying ty..for actually adressing the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

1) PvE already gets the majority of the updates, and many of the skill balances. The dervish and mesmer rebalances were certainly done with PvE in mind, not PvP. So, right off the bat, your claim is bull; PvE already does get much more attention.)

PvP gets most of the updates (strictly speaking in numbers)...thought that was common knowledge...most updates are some sorta skill balance which are...wait for it....for pvp, SG is no exception.

Quote:

2) PvP runs on balance, PvE does not. PvE has tons of OPed crap to play with. The addition or subtraction of a skill here or there will not make or break your entertainment; quite the opposite for PvP.

If they would update skills that aren't used for PvE..I could care less. The problem with this update...is that they changed a skill "SG" that was used in PvE...but not in PvP to address PvP meta issue...which will change. (pvp meta always changes...the skill will remain crap in PvE long after the pvp meta shifts) While PvE may not run on balance...it is important to it.

Quote:

3) Every game has a tiny percentage of the population that plays in the top formats/difficulty levels/brackets. That's why they're the top formats. That's not an argument for ignoring them! The game needs that top format to prosper, or there's literally nowhere for those in the middle to aspire to (which is, incidentally, the situation we are in right now, for the most part).

I'm going to have to disagree on this point as there are tons of PvE'rs participating in a "top format" of their own w/o any intention to "aspire" to PvP. It is these players that the SG update effected the most in terms of one of the ER builds.

Reformed · Jul 25, 2011, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

A Heal Party in the prot line that heals all allies and can heal for ~120hp easily in most cases doesn't strike me as useless.

What are you doing getting 3+ people hit in a 3-4 second window by attacks in the first place? Good aggro control requires a lot more skill than waiting for the maximum number of people to get hit to fuel these theoretical heals.

Wenspire · Jul 25, 2011, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

A Heal Party in the prot line that heals all allies and can heal for ~120hp easily in most cases doesn't strike me as useless. Compare Divine Healing, a solid skill for a monk in PvE that needs nonelite party healing. SG is 5 energy more and recharges 8 seconds slower, but will almost always heal for at least 20 points, heal all allies, and if you use it well you could get double the healing or more as DH.

A 120 heal over 20 seconds is like having 3-pips of regen over 20sec. I'd personally rather equip Never Surrender. At least that skill costs only 5en, has no activation time and doesn't suffer from any of the common hexes used vs casters.

Skyy High · Jul 25, 2011, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

What are you doing getting 3+ people hit in a 3-4 second window by attacks in the first place? Good aggro control requires a lot more skill than waiting for the maximum number of people to get hit to fuel these theoretical heals.

Obviously this skill isn't for all builds, groups, and areas. If you plan on having a minion wall, this probably isn't your skill. If you plan on jumping into an area with a lot of physicals and not using proper aggro control (does anyone here actually send the warrior in to tank for most mobs? I just pull if necessary and run in) you could definitely get 3+ people getting hit at once. It happens all the time for me, that's why I bring Aegis instead of Guardian on my monks. Note what this skill is meant to fight in PvP; those are the kind of enemies you should use it against.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

A 120 heal over 20 seconds is like having 3-pips of regen over 20sec. I'd personally rather equip Never Surrender. At least that skill costs only 5en, has no activation time and doesn't suffer from any of the common hexes used vs casters.

Because regen is the same as burst healing, amirite? Oh, and Command is totally the same as Protection. And "all party members" is the same as "all allies". Sheesh.

Oh, and by your logic Divine Healing is even worse, since it heals 60hp over 12 seconds = 2.5 pips.

Elnino · Jul 25, 2011, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

PvP gets most of the updates (strictly speaking in numbers)...thought that was common knowledge...most updates are some sorta skill balance which are...wait for it....for pvp, SG is no exception.

Quality over quantity.

Quote:

If they would update skills that aren't used for PvE..I could care less. The problem with this update...is that they changed a skill "SG" that was used in PvE...but not in PvP to address PvP meta issue...which will change. (pvp meta always changes...the skill will remain crap in PvE long after the pvp meta shifts) While PvE may not run on balance...it is important to it.

They wanted to introduce a new skill into the game so that players could handle triple melee builds in PvP. Instead of completely creating an entire new skill (with the name, icon, animation etc), they decided to put this new skill in place of a problem skill in PvE. Pretty smart if you ask me.

I find it strange that you think balance in PvE is important yet you are advocating against a change to an overpowered template. ER eles are far from balanced and just because eles aren't as strong as other professions isn't gonna justify why the ER template shouldn't be touched. Fyi, ER is still in need of a nerf and it's not like eles can't do anything else. Jeydra has proven that an ele can successfully complete every corner of this game - without using any ER build.

Wenspire · Jul 25, 2011, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Because regen is the same as burst healing, amirite? Oh, and Command is totally the same as Protection. And "all party members" is the same as "all allies". Sheesh.

With a 1sec cast and 20sec recharge, "potential" burst healing over a 3-5sec duration is just as unreliable as regen for a protection skill. Also, 6 in Command isnt hard to reach. Healing for "all allies" over "all party members" every 20sec is not something to be excited over for me. But, that's just for me...

Essence Snow · Jul 25, 2011, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

I find it strange that you think balance in PvE is important yet you are advocating against a change to an overpowered template. ER eles are far from balanced and just because eles aren't as strong as other professions isn't gonna justify why the ER template shouldn't be touched. Fyi, ER is still in need of a nerf and it's not like eles can't do anything else. Jeydra has proven that an ele can successfully complete every corner of this game - without using any ER build.

Good point......quite the conundrum...I find that "a type" of balance is needed...one that allows for every profession to have some role in game play which they are "better than/or at least on par with" other professions. Atm for eles that role is ER.

I am well aware of Jeydra's air AP build....I however view AP much along the same lines as Ursan.

Xenomortis · Jul 25, 2011, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

I am well aware of Jeydra's air AP build....I however view AP much along the same lines as Ursan.

There's a fundamental difference between Ursan and Assassin's Promise; the two aren't even in the same league.

ItsJustMe · Jul 25, 2011, 11:22 PM // 23:22

There's alot of attention being placed on the healing side of the skill and not enough on the blocking of the skill.

If you get 3 blocks the healing is 100+, but the block is key as well. How much damage would it prevent? Timed right it will kill a spike if the melee misses the DW.

It's really a party wide RoF.

If the healing was tied to Divine Favor, it might never see use. As it stands, I'm not sure it's good enough to make it to a midliners bar anyway.

Monk bars are so tight right now anyway, I'm just not sure it can make it.

-i

Sankt Hallvard · Jul 25, 2011, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Partywide rof with 1 sec cast? And you're gonna time it to block the melees dw? You're good obviously!

Monkbars are tight? rc, gua and maybe sh on the prot. What else is indispensable? Prot is mighty flexible imo.

MArcSinus · Jul 25, 2011, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

Quality over quantity.

They wanted to introduce a new skill into the game so that players could handle triple melee builds in PvP. Instead of completely creating an entire new skill (with the name, icon, animation etc), they decided to put this new skill in place of a problem skill in PvE. Pretty smart if you ask me.

I find it strange that you think balance in PvE is important yet you are advocating against a change to an overpowered template. ER eles are far from balanced and just because eles aren't as strong as other professions isn't gonna justify why the ER template shouldn't be touched. Fyi, ER is still in need of a nerf and it's not like eles can't do anything else. Jeydra has proven that an ele can successfully complete every corner of this game - without using any ER build.

FYI: ER is the only thing eles can run which is optimal. Lol @ PvE. You can clear PvE with about anything, but that doesn't justify the terrible inbalanced ele.
The new Shield Guardian is terribad for ER (no divine favor) and is basically a retarded Aegis.

Now if they finally decided to buff the ele's elemental magic I could care less about ER, nerf it by all means, but sadly this still isn't the case.

Xenomortis · Jul 26, 2011, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Partywide rof with 1 sec cast? And you're gonna time it to block the melees dw? You're good obviously!

Monkbars are tight? rc, gua and maybe sh on the prot. What else is indispensable? Prot is mighty flexible imo.

Cutting one of Aura of Stability, Spirit Bond/Aegis and Holy Veil is going to leave the Prot Monk with a gap in near required functionality whilst cutting his defensive skill (Balanced/Return/etc) is going to leave him much more vulnerable. So that leaves Reversal of Fortune and is the new Shield Guardian really more useful than Reversal?